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Combat veterans shoot down the NRA: ‘The good guy with a gun is based on a fantasy world’

Several combat veterans spoke with The Nation‘s Joshua Holland, in an attempt to expose the “lies” peddled by the NRA and the politicians that they own.

Specifically taking on NRA chief Wayne LaPierre‘s now infamous claim that “Good guys with guns kill bad guys with guns,” the veterans said that gun owners cannot simply will themselves to become heroes in high stress situations.

“I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way. When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was,” said retired Army Sgt. Rafael Noboa y Rivera. “I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance. I think they would absolutely panic.”

Many combat veterans believe that civilian “good guys” taking on the “bad guys” during an active shooting isn’t as simple as it seems in movies and video games. Although more weapons owners are taking weekend-long tactical weapon training, that doesn’t instantly make a someone ready for combat.

Combat veteran John Parker didn’t attack the gunman at Oregon’s Umpqua Community College in early 2015. Although Parker was armed and held a concealed carry permit, he stayed hiding in a classroom. Parker’s years of training alerted him to the fact that opening fire on the gunman could likely do more harm than good.

“We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was, their response time, they wouldn’t know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys,” said Parker,

Ben Carson infamously criticized those in Oregon who stood by, claiming that he would have attacked the shooter with a group of people. However, the GOP candidate fails to take into account that a “good guy” would have to overcome their biological instinct for survival.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal — that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game day — is ridiculous,” said David Chipman, a former SWAT team member with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

It’s widely accepted in law enforcement that improperly trained civilians often do more harm than good when trying to help at crime scenes.

Armed citizens can often overreact, like when a Michigan woman opened fire on suspected shoplifters while they fled the scene. In Texas, a “good guy” tried to help a carjacking victim, but because he was improperly trained, he accidentally shot the victim in the head while the carjackers escaped. The Texas “good guy” even fled the scene with the carjackers.

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” said Chipman. “The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire? For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”

[Raw Story] This post has been updated

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367 Comments

367 Comments

  1. Leron

    December 8, 2015 at 6:44 pm

    Finally, someone speaks the truth, and it makes sense. Thats why I completely trust our armed forces, state, county and local police over a good guy with a gun … Any day.

  2. Deb S

    December 8, 2015 at 7:00 pm

    Finally people that have training and experience are speaking out. Thank god for the voice of reason. We need more people like them speaking out until people start to take them seriously.

  3. GP

    December 8, 2015 at 8:07 pm

    Yep.

  4. Lee

    December 8, 2015 at 8:53 pm

    Would not the “untrained assassin” also freeze up if someone put a round near them?

    To quote the article – “I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance. I think they would absolutely panic.”

    So hear me out since they used the Oregon shooter as an example and he had 35 days of military service before his discharge. He was not “trained”. When confronted by law enforcement he was shot and retreated and then he ended his life. So – if a bad guy trained or untrained is shooting people – a person shooting at them would at the very least draw their attention. They would likely panic as well, once again this is logical. This person fired at the officer ignoring others. So a good guy with a gun is at the very least a good distraction for others to escape, yes the two officers were very brave and no that was not their primary job. Their job is to come home and many of the law enforcement cannot take a life, they do that study every once in a while

    My last point is to carry in Minnesota you need to be trained per MN Statue 624.714, Subd. 2a. Of course the biggest part of the training is knowing that if you draw your weapon you are going to ruin the rest of your life one way or another.

  5. Bob Simes

    December 8, 2015 at 9:08 pm

    As a retired police officer, I have to agree. Untrained personnel cause more damage than can be imagined. However, the presence of armed persons cm be a deterrent to those who wish to do harm. But, training is the key.

  6. Alex Willging

    December 8, 2015 at 9:33 pm

    Great article. My only complaint is that your link to the story about the Michigan woman opening fire on shoplifters redirects to the Rachel Maddow story on Ben Carson. Might want to get that fixed.

  7. George

    December 8, 2015 at 11:02 pm

    Except for the times when they don’t freeze or whip it around. Please google “times when a civilian with a gun saves” and learn about 34 recorded events on the first page alone. Or do these lives saved by a civilian with a gun not count?

  8. James L. Riggs

    December 9, 2015 at 2:30 am

    There are some of our military that drink deeply from the obozo socialist cool-aid. So their answer is just sit and wait until the police show up. Really? In the meantime, the bad guy with the gun continues to kill innocent by-standers, maybe even you. Now there is a true liberal plan, do nothing, watch others die, and be a victim ourselves. I guess for a liberal that makes perfect sense.

  9. ncmathsadistJohn

    December 9, 2015 at 5:50 am

    At last adults are speaking to this issue.

  10. hockeydogg

    December 9, 2015 at 5:56 am

    Not going to google your account, but even if true, 34 out of thousands and thousands? Great percentage.

  11. hockeydogg

    December 9, 2015 at 5:58 am

    I’m guessing most active shooters don’t think they’ll be getting out alive, so they have nothing to lose. Just sayin.

  12. Prasanna

    December 9, 2015 at 7:26 am

    1. This doesn’t answer the argument that good guy might just end up shooting more innocents when trying to distract the bad guy.
    2. You assume that bad guy will panic if good guy shoots at him. He might or might not panic. He could be mentally prepared for such response as he already on suicide killing. If he really wanted to survive, he might have not done the shooting. I think instincts that tell us I want to live and this is life threatening situation makes us panic in such situations as it puts pressure on us mentally to take actions that will increase the probability of our survival.

  13. Rob Powers

    December 9, 2015 at 7:50 am

    Lee. The” untrained assassin “operates from an entirely different mind set. And he is probably trained to a certain extent. He does not care about who gets hurt. He has played the scenario over and over again in his mind. He has trained with his firearms. His firearms are condition ready. Most cc heroes hord ammo instead of practice with it. They do not shoot frequently, or under stress. They do not even know stress that comes from being in a real fight. They haven’t shot a rabbit or bird hunting much less a real Pearson shooting back. Successfully hunters have to train to be effective. One can shoot paper all day long and miss a deer at 20 yards. Many in ther first hunting situation do not have ammo in the fire arm and or can’t get the safety off. My perception is the guys supporting this position have lived through fire fights, close combat in urban terrain. If you haven’t. Been there you may be able to learn from them.

  14. Konrad Langlie

    December 9, 2015 at 8:12 am

    In my 43 years of military service I may have seen more combat than all these so called combat veterans combined. Two million times a year Americans legally use guns to protect themselves and their families. Most gun owners have some gun training and many have far more training than most active duty military personnel. This article is cherry picking by finding a handful of disgruntled veterans who agree with the author; the vast majority of veterans are patriotic gun owners.

  15. marecek

    December 9, 2015 at 8:37 am

    There is one very important thing you overlook. The attacker has planned the attack and is ready. Those whom he is attacking are not expecting anything. The element of surprise and advance preparation are a huge advantage. In any case, I haven’t seen any mass shooters freezing up.

  16. B

    December 9, 2015 at 8:52 am

    These guys are pussys, have a 10 year old Marine Corps combat veteran myself my first reaction wouldn’t be to hide in an active shooter situation it would be to do everything in my power to prevent loss of life. Just because these guys are military veterans doesn’t make them experts they sound like a bunch of pussies to me

  17. TZH

    December 9, 2015 at 9:03 am

    this is a sweeping generalization. and you people are fixated on the words “untrained”. there is a such thing as TRAINED civilians.

    have you seen how competitive USPSA and IDPA shooters train?

    sure its a game. but way way better than people who graduated a simple CCW class.

    leagues apart. and even combat veterans don’t shoot like many of these guys.

    don’t strip us of our fightng chance. evil people always exist. many of them have guns. thats a fact. what you gonna do? cry till they stop hurting people?

  18. Rod

    December 9, 2015 at 9:14 am

    Whoosh!

  19. John Wardenburg

    December 9, 2015 at 9:35 am

    Even if that good guy is you, at home with the closest law officer miles away?

  20. James

    December 9, 2015 at 10:16 am

    This article is spot-on.

    It’s EXACTLY this reason that I’ve been advocating stress/scenario training should be inclusive of all CCW classes. In California, most LE agencies that do issue require CCW Training providers to offer NO LESS than 16 hrs and qualify with the guns to be carried and listed on the CCW license.

    It’s much more than shooting at paper with all the time in the world. Need to A) figure out carry method B) drawing from that method with your concealment C) being able to deploy it safely and ensuring each shot count D) doing all of the above under heart rate / panic response E) keeping the training recurrent using SIMs, FATS, or Virtra.

  21. David Schaffer

    December 9, 2015 at 10:22 am

    As a combat vet, this article is ludicrous! What was said about “untrained” civilians can also hold true for the police officer, the vet or anybody. I personally saw “well trained” military personnel freeze up.

    In response to the overlook, keep in mind these attacks continue to occur in “gun-free” zones, meaning they are not planning on opposition meaning no “freezing up”, some are also on a suicide mission so no matter what happens they will just spray bullets.

  22. Dave

    December 9, 2015 at 10:49 am

    These guys talk about civilians acting as cops. The proper scenario is that the armed citizen is in the room with the shooter, the shooter is firing at him or those around him, and he has an opportunity to react. In that case, many people have become victorious over potential mass shooters and common criminals.

    Anyone not on the scene should wait on the cops. The cops misidentify the threat far more often than citizens who are being attacked.

    These are a lot of scenarios that are simple speculation. When the time comes, 300 people in a theater with a lone gunman and 30 armed citizens have a lot better chance of survival.

  23. Dave

    December 9, 2015 at 10:51 am

    Well, lets train some people then.

  24. Andrew Wertz

    Andrew Wertz

    December 9, 2015 at 12:38 pm

    Thanks! Just fixed it.

  25. Senior Haberdasher (@SmithSenator)

    December 9, 2015 at 1:43 pm

    George – no one claims that a civilian with a gun has never stopped a crime from occurring. This article is simply saying that it is highly unlikely to help if citizens are armed, highly likely that it will increase the damage if they do, their help isn’t wanted by law enforcement, and that hero vigilantism should be left to the superhero movies where it belongs. And by the way, I googled the exact phrase you listed, and an article four links down pointed out quite clearly that armed civilians have had no measurable increase in the ability to stop a mass shooting. So the opinions are mixed – not that this should be of any surprise. Instead of quoting google searches, how about we listen to the professionals, not the tabloids or the gun lobby who have financial gains in mind?

  26. Christy Penleric (@Rosebud51)

    December 9, 2015 at 1:46 pm

    I am alive today because a good guy had a gun.

  27. John

    December 9, 2015 at 1:51 pm

    Lee, you are of course correct. The average citizen, one-on-one, in a combat situation with a sober, trained, vet, would need to be awfully lucky. However, citizens don’t face ISIS vets with a year fighting against Assad. They face junkies, drunks, untrained jihadi zealots and the mentally ill. Most have no training, too much coke and MJ and ETOH in the bloodstream, not enough sleep, and no experience or plan about what to do when the citizen or offduty cop returns fire. THAT is why the average armed citizen is so often victorious against them.

  28. Tucson\

    December 9, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    Remember, when seconds count, the Police are only minutes away. You know what? I’ll take my chances if it means possibly saving many lives because a good guy had a gun. You, however, are welcome to cower in fear and hope it’s someone else that gets shot rather than you.

  29. Jay

    December 9, 2015 at 2:35 pm

    I’m a combat veteran and I find this article ridiculous. People who have firearms will freak out and all of a sudden start shooting people willy nilly? I call BS. George is correct there are several instances of someone with a gun saving people and preventing further harm to themselves or others. If someone comes into a building and starts shooting people… the person with the firearm shoots that person, simple. Absolutely ridiculous to assume if police arrive they will start shooting police or other people because they panicked. This article seems like some military guys wanted to puff up their chests because of their training and say other people can’t handle what we do. My wife is an ER nurse and has 0 military training but she can handle a gun and has to make life/death decisions every day. If she had a gun and someone came in a building and started shooting people, I assure you she would be able to shoot that person and not “panic” and start going on a shooting spree herself lol.

  30. ultimatefrisbee88

    December 9, 2015 at 3:15 pm

    Their point is that guns do not require training. They are instruments of death, sold for peanuts at every wal-mart nation-wide, available with basically no accreditation.

    How many of them do you think are ready to be thrust into the role of first responder?

    The idea that a gun simply qualifies you to be a deterrent to mass shooters is preposterous. They know they are going to have to deal with police 10 minutes after they start, so they are ready for battle before hand. Hell, they might have armor on.

    Thinking that distributing handguns to more and more unqualified people as a means of making us safer is absurd.

  31. David

    December 9, 2015 at 3:20 pm

    OOH RAH Konrad! I have seen this with my own eyes and know that not every combat vet is mentally or physically able to preform the duties when actually put to the task. I have also seen civilians that have gone above and beyond. I thank you for your service brother.
    P.S. I also find it interesting he is a “combat” vet yet they do not mention MOS. Nor do they say if he is a “combat action vet.” They need to fit the narrative and if the said vet entered country but was never in certain situations he could be considered combat yet is not combat action.

  32. Chaisecat

    December 9, 2015 at 3:43 pm

    It almost never happens, in real life. Instead, you and your families are 4-5 times more likely to be murdered by family, killed in accidental shootings, or use the gun to successfully commit suicide.

  33. Winter

    December 9, 2015 at 4:03 pm

    I am alive today because of a good guy with a gun.
    I am sure if Liberals would bother to ask, they would find millions of us. Of course, they would never accurately report it, or honor those good guys.

  34. Dave Vann

    December 9, 2015 at 4:04 pm

    As a retired police officer I absolutely disagree and challenge you to provide any substantial cases where that is true. The cases where law-abiding citizens have stepped up, used firearms to defend themselves, police officers and other civilians are legion. From the teacher in school who stopped the would be mass murderer to the guy in the quick stop store in Virginia who stopped the attempted execution of the store owner and patron during a robbery, the incidents number too many to count.

    It’s only if you have an agenda that you refuse to recognize that even those with zero training have thwarted bad guys intent on murder and rape.

  35. Pete

    December 9, 2015 at 4:38 pm

    Sounds like a lot of speculation and “I think”. Funny thing is that these “good guys” seem to be successful on a daily basis thwarting crime, according to the news reports from across the country. Sure, mistakes are sometimes made, just as in the military but overall the good guys do quite well as a group. I’ll take those odds over just cowering in a corner watching other people die.

  36. smith

    December 9, 2015 at 5:08 pm

    I think the NRA is on target if you are talking about someone busting into your house intending on doing you harm, without a weapon of some kind you are at their mercy. With a weapon still probably a 50/50 but at least maybe everybody bleeds not just you. As far as marching as a unit won’t happen. Your better off holding up on your own turf and let the bad guys travel. When it all goes south and even the elite don’t have batteries, chargers, food, water and ammo we’ll all be chunking rocks anyway.

  37. Rlee Emerysgt

    December 9, 2015 at 5:37 pm

    You trust lies over reality, got it stalin

  38. Rlee Emerysgt

    December 9, 2015 at 5:39 pm

    So in the thousands of actual self defense incidents where shots are fired, why is it you anti gun pevrverts cant provide one example of collateral shootings eh…..

  39. Rlee Emerysgt

    December 9, 2015 at 5:42 pm

    Yawn, so what your saying is that since 322,000 violent crimes were reported with a gun in 2012 per FBI that since only 9,892 resulted in a killing, that the other 312,118 violent crimes committed with a gun didnt actually occur….got it sweety……

  40. Rlee Emerysgt

    December 9, 2015 at 5:43 pm

    Why was it hours after they started shooting in San Bernadino that the bad guys had to deal with cops eh sweety…..MASSIVE FAIL…..

  41. Good Guy With Gun

    December 9, 2015 at 5:44 pm

    I want to know who this person was (John Parker) that hid while carrying a weapon during the Oregon shooting? Is that what he did in his military career? Hide until someone else does what you should’ve done?

  42. Michelle

    December 9, 2015 at 5:47 pm

    One of the biggest thing regulation advocates push for is a DL like test you have to pass to get a license to own a firearm. “Let’s train some people” you say? Let’s! And let’s make sure they keep those skills.

  43. Rlee Emerysgt

    December 9, 2015 at 5:53 pm

    1,080 deaths/injuries in 65 gun free zone mass shootings since 1982 avg. 16.615 per incident Google Mother Jones Mass shootings as they surprisingly have the details!

    75 deaths/injuries in 32 incidents in gun free zones since 1991 where armed self defense occurred, avg. 2.43 per incident!

    12/17/91 Shoneys Alliston AL

    10/1/97 Pearl High Pearl MS

    4/24/98 Edinsborough PA

    1/16/02 Appalachian Law School VA

    11/20/05 Tacoma WA

    2/12/07 Trolley Mall UT

    12/9/07 New Life Springs CO

    6/6/08 Winnemuca NV

    1/25/08 Makor High School, Jerusalem

    6/11/09 Holocaust Memorial D.C.

    5/4/09 College Station GA

    6/11/09 Golden Market Richmond VA

    1/4/10 Federal Court House Las Vegas NV
    
5/27/10 AT&T store New York Mills NY

    8/7/10 The Wall Jerusalem 

    8/30/10 Sullivan High TN

    2/28/12 Colorado Springs CO, Urological Associates office
    4/24/12 New Destiny Church Aurora CO

    8/15/12 Family Research Council D.C.

    12/11/12 Clackamas Mall OR

    12/19/12 San Antonio TX

    1/1/13 NightClub Sacramento CA

    1/31/13 Middle School Atlanta GA

    2/1/13 High School Detroit MI

    10/20/13 Party-Glendale AZ
    12/13/13 Arapahoe HIghSchool CO
    1/11/14 Portland OR Strip Club
    5/1/2014 Austin TX Construction Yard
    6/3/14 Reynolds High School Troutdale Oregon
    6/14/14 East Peoria IL High School Reunion
    7/25/14 Darby PA Mercy Fitzgerald Wellness center
    11/16/14 Club Khaos, Elpaso TX

    30 plus years trying it the anti gun nuts way isn’t working, and armed self defense had it occurred in those 65 gun free zone incidents where no defense occurred, could have prevented up to 893 deaths/injuries!

    16.615/2.34 = 7.1 times more people killed in a mass shooting where no armed resistance occurs!

    We challenge the anti gun nuts to go to the families of those 1,080 victims, look them in they eye, and say you supported disarming their family members when the data clearly shows armed self defense could have saved up to 893 people from being injured!

    My money bet is they don’t make it out of the 3rd home before being re-educated Gulag style!

  44. Rlee Emerysgt

    December 9, 2015 at 5:56 pm

    Of course we see you leave out the most improtant fact of the law banning lawful citizens from carrying in gun free zones…so how again can you claim law abiding citizens cant and dont help stop the bad guys, WHEN THEY ARE OBEYING YOURE GUN BAN BS LAWS TWEEDLE DUMB….

    LOL, you really havent a clue…

  45. Rlee Emerysgt

    December 9, 2015 at 5:58 pm

    ROTFLMFAO, Kris Kyles widow, just had a shoot off competition with a ranked NRA instructor, and beat him….

    Amazing how so many civilians are more thoroughly trained than the 1 mil police who are 11 times more likely to shoot someone accidentally …….

  46. Whymilikethis

    December 9, 2015 at 6:03 pm

    Do you mean from the Christian, American terrorists that are slaughtering people en masse almost daily?

  47. Whymilikethis

    December 9, 2015 at 6:06 pm

    Mentally ill? Do you mean the American terrorists that are shooting people in hordes on an almost daily basis? Or are just the scary, scary Muslims the only ones who are referred to as terrorists?

  48. Rich

    December 9, 2015 at 6:57 pm

    Indeed. And yet those with no experience with such situations think they know better than those who have been there. Idiots, romantic childish naive idiots with guns. Heaven help us all.

  49. Rich

    December 9, 2015 at 7:04 pm

    “Two million times a year Americans legally use guns to protect themselves and their families.” “…and many have far more training than most active duty military personnel” Holy begeezus batman! ….

  50. Dave Vann

    December 9, 2015 at 7:50 pm

    I left a reply to Bob Simes but I guess you don’t like it when one LEO disagrees and challenges another.

  51. Dave Vann

    December 9, 2015 at 7:51 pm

    I take that back, it loaded.

  52. Kevin Wires

    December 9, 2015 at 8:40 pm

    So brave, must have hundreds of hours on Call of duty. You ignored the comments on being able to identify the “bad.Guys” from other citizen’s that happened to be armed that day. So when you look out from Cover and you see someone with their gun out do you check to see if they are well dressed? Or do you look to see if they are in a hoodie? or do you have a special good guy badge How eill the police when they arrive know that you are a good guy?

  53. Lee

    December 9, 2015 at 10:26 pm

    1. If there is an argument a shooter shooting innocents or innocents get hit on return fire what is the difference, except innocents can “duck and cover” from return fire and live. If they duck under assassin he will finish the job. (Leave, Hide, Fight) You assume innocents don’t die I do – but I am just saying less of them. I would suggest the round count does not increase with 2 shooters. They always bring more rounds than they use in 90 percent of the cases. 2. I am asking if they assume the good guy panics why not the bad guy. Yes as the comment say he is prepared but he is prepared like a thug. I have seen comedians fall apart because of one heckler, yes they are prepared. It is the same thing. You cannot prepare for everything but if you carry you should prepare to draw it. As for another personal note when a gun is pointed at you, it can be unnerving no matter if you are trained.

  54. Lee

    December 9, 2015 at 10:43 pm

    Rob good to know you know the mind of the assassin. I am putting you on the no fly list.
    However, they plan on killing not being killed, until they run out of ammo or blow something up. They retreat when confronted like all bullies, you can see that not only in this case but in all others. Yes stress comes but adrenaline can conquer it, And you analogy is true that once you miss a deer through a mistake you don’t do it again. I can tell you they are taking one side of the argument, I am pointing another. It is all speculative.

  55. Lee

    December 9, 2015 at 10:51 pm

    So the deranged psychopath has planned this down to the minute?. He has a plan but it is killing people not being shot at – or stabbed. From ten years ago – Jeffrey May, a 16-year-old sophomore, tried to wrestle Weise inside the classroom, and stabbed him in the stomach with a pencil.[6] His diversion allowed students to flee the classroom to safety, but Weise shot May two times in the neck and once in the jaw, leaving him injured, though not fatally.

    Do not give them credit, the variables are the dogs among the sheep. May had no training he attacked with whatever he had it would had been better if he had a knife or gun. To let you know this bad guy was confronted as well, withdrew and then ended himself.

  56. Kevin

    December 9, 2015 at 11:27 pm

    I love your hero scenario. You saving lives, everyone else cowering in fear. You must be a video gamer. At the very least, you are just arrogant.

  57. Kevin

    December 9, 2015 at 11:31 pm

    Oh here we go, another person taking the gun control debate to the Nth degree. No, you can protect your home from an intruder. We just don’t want your finger trigger happy ass at the mall “protecting” people with your lack of training.

  58. ScienceGuy Hawaii (@AstroguyHawaii)

    December 9, 2015 at 11:37 pm

    James, your argument devolves into liberals and how liberals react. Your argument is flawed and wrong. I am a Vietnam vet who spent two tours in Nam and have been in more firefights than you as you sound like you have no military combat experience except maybe call of duty gaming. What no one is saying is the activeas active shooter has an AR-15 or AK! CC has a handgun possibly 9mm. Very few people can go up against overwhelming firepower with 30 round mags while you have 6 or 7 rounds. The AR-15 is much more a threat than you with a .22 cal handgun. I am a liberal and would fight with my 45acp but realize my limitations. You need to grow a set and stop throwing in your biases in an intelligent conversation. If you want to earn some credibility, join the Marines clown!

  59. Donald Cole

    December 10, 2015 at 2:11 am

    There are also incidents where people are shot by police doing it. Also incidents where the would-be good guy kills innocent people playing hero. Let’s leave the shooting to those proven to have training doing so. 😉

  60. Donald Cole

    December 10, 2015 at 2:12 am

    Hear Hear!

  61. Mr. Wicker

    December 10, 2015 at 3:40 am

    Ha ha it’s like you people didn’t watch or read this. Still under the illusion that the mythical “good guy with a gun” is going to be the big hero. What a joke. You’re deluded.

  62. Randy (combat vet)

    December 10, 2015 at 3:44 am

    This story is BS! The sources aren’t named and it’s just way to biased.

  63. Jim L Couch

    December 10, 2015 at 4:59 am

    Criminal assault is not the same as war zone combat, I totally disagree with this article. A criminal assault gun fight is going to be a line of sight battle and a civilian is going to be in a defensive position not assaulting the criminal element like the police or military does. The reason it will save lives is the criminal will be met with armed resistance not that civilians are going to pursue them. They will turn away in pursuit of softer less dangerous targets.

  64. Mk610

    December 10, 2015 at 5:05 am

    How often do police walk into a highly charged situation and overreact? It happens a lot. Shooting victims 16 times. Firing at one another because they thought (incorrectly) that the criminal had fired a gun. And cops train for these situations all the time. Arming civilians is a really bad idea.

  65. Ryan Feltman

    December 10, 2015 at 5:39 am

    Agreed buddy

  66. Kimberpross

    December 10, 2015 at 5:45 am

    Speaking for myself and on hehalf of many maybe most conceal carry individuals. If the person is running out fo the gas station with a gun, I let them go, and inform the police what I see. If I am in Walmart and some sick individual opens fire, I will open fire to protect myself, my loved ones, and you. That is the true purpose of carrying. Not to police individuals but to protect in that first few minutes in defense. Most of the mass shooters commit suicide if confronted it seems.

  67. vanitylicenseplate

    December 10, 2015 at 6:53 am

    It’s rather pathetic how so many people equate an active shooter scenario to theater of combat.

    I’m a combat vet – and I’ve also been in close proximity to an active shooter. At no point would I ever confuse the two… I question whether or not these proclaimed vets were actually in combat, or if they’re just looking for 15 minutes of fame.

  68. Dave Pressly

    December 10, 2015 at 6:58 am

    This whole article is based on assumptions of soldiers who have no degree in psychology or understanding of how any other person will act during any given situation. This is about their opinion, pro or con, it is still just their opinion. They do not know, nor will they know how anyone else will act upon or react to any given situation.

  69. Jp

    December 10, 2015 at 7:37 am

    34 on first page, is what the post said.

  70. Dave Vann

    December 10, 2015 at 8:10 am

    Please site your incidents where police have mistakenly shot good guys or good guys have mistakenly shot innocent civilians. I don’t believe a single one exists except in the rantings of the anti-gun bunch.

  71. Michael G Conroy

    December 10, 2015 at 8:15 am

    So, John, do you pack at home, sitting on the sofa? Or, like a responsible gun owner, do you keep your gun locked up? Do you expect the intruder to wait patiently while you unlock the cabinet?

  72. Dave Vann

    December 10, 2015 at 8:22 am

    As a retired LEO I believe you’ve hit the proverbial nail on the head. This artical strikes me as a bias hit piece devised with one purpose in mind, to discredit the legitimate carry and use of firearms for self defense by law-abiding citizens and give the anti-gun whiney moms etc a place to say “see we told you so”.

    Further, no studies or statistics are provided to back up the premise of the author of the article further lending it to total dismissal and the conclusion that it’s just another example of journalistic trash.

  73. Jen

    December 10, 2015 at 8:26 am

    And even more die every year because of irresponsible gun use. Once in a while, someone will be safely thrown from a car accident because they weren’t wearing a seatbelt, but I’m still going to wear a seatbelt because I understand statistics. I’m glad you’re alive and well. However, your personal experience plays on emotion while ignoring every other factor.

  74. Michael M. Keohane

    December 10, 2015 at 8:28 am

    So some veterans do not think that civilians can defend themselves and others. The facts say otherwise – check the available statistics and, please note that there are many other combat veterans and civilians who have been in such situations that would not agree with these combat veterans.

  75. Nightthorn k'Vala

    December 10, 2015 at 10:20 am

    Tell that to the family of the carjacking victim in Texas. You can’t tell the car owner himself because the ‘good guy with a gun’ shot him in the head, then ran off like the coward he is. Not that I’d want to be carjacked, but I’d rather lose the car than my life. How ’bout you?

  76. Jumbo

    December 10, 2015 at 10:40 am

    Just going to throw his out there but I’m sure there are some civilians out there that can out proform a trained vet. Why wouldn’t you want someone who is calculated enough to attempt to disarm a bad guy. It’s like if I saw someone choking and I knew who to perform the heimlick am I suppose to wait for the paramedics? And if I failed wouldn’t I be covered by the Good Samaritan law? This article is assuming everyone outside of the military and law enforcement would just spray bullets and hit everyone but the bad guy, kinda silly. I get the point but people need to consider if your going to buy a gun please get training and practice and be calculated.

  77. Not Yours

    December 10, 2015 at 11:07 am

    So the people who go out in public without guns are cowering in fear and the ones who are afraid to go out of their house without a gun are brave? How does that make any damn sense at all?

  78. LeRoy T

    December 10, 2015 at 11:24 am

    Dave, agreed. I also carry to protect ME.

  79. ges280

    December 10, 2015 at 12:19 pm

    Because expert testimony has a well known liberal bias. And of course our trains should always be late because Mussolini, and we should all smoke because Hitler.

  80. Howard Sands

    December 10, 2015 at 2:18 pm

    Well, Mr. Wardenburg, what we just read isn’t about protecting your home from an intruder, is it now?

  81. Odysseus M Tanner

    December 10, 2015 at 2:51 pm

    People don’t understand the simple reality: shoot back or certain death, that’s what the right of the people is for, and that’s why people have – and need – guns.

  82. Klot

    December 10, 2015 at 3:07 pm

    It makes no sense why ANY police official would want conceal carry or open carry laws. Not only doesn’t muddy up the situation, but these people think they can do YOUR JOB! If you mr a cop that advocates conceal carry, open carry and essentially the 2nd amendment, your job would be meaningless. Stop and think about what’s really important. Human lives, or the fact that you like to go target shooting and fantasizing about these “situations” you’ve created in your head.

  83. Doug Urbanski

    December 10, 2015 at 3:53 pm

    I’m a three time combat veteran and I call BS! The writer of this articles never asked combat vets off the street, those of us who did and do know how to engage the enemy. It is obvious that he only interviewed those who agreed with his agenda. Andrew Wertz lives in a fantasy world.

  84. me here

    December 10, 2015 at 4:04 pm

    LOL OKAY since we all served we are experts. .Combat vets ..well I got 8 years 2 overseas tours of 6 years. And this didn’t make me and expert. Combat vets can only speak of a combat theater. They have no idea on a home town unarmed civilians vs but cases. We have already proven unarmed civilians are no match for armed gunmen. We have already proven bad guys will still get guns and bombs and kill you. ..

  85. Dennis Myers

    December 10, 2015 at 4:56 pm

    If you take innocent lives by mistake, will you still think you made the right choice?

  86. truthrdare

    December 10, 2015 at 5:58 pm

    There is a partial truth here maybe in some cases, just maybe. Andrew Wertz and the rest here on his side of this are far from it. To assume some absolute truth in this argument like so many here are doing is absurd and ludicrous. A gun is just a tool. Use it wisely it does what it is intended to do. Use it unwisely and unjustly it will do harm. In some of those unfortunate cases perhaps innocent people will get injured or killed. If you can not abide such for any reason stay away from guns. However if you are a responsible citizen and prefer your personal protection to be a gun, that right is guaranteed by our Constitution. For great reasons I would add. This right has been abridged more than enough by people who understand little about these tools as most here and even less about our rights as free men. Andrew by your writings you have shown a bias and have used this piece to propagandize it. Shame on you. Put your fantasy aside. Ask a man faced with combat if he would give up his weapon! Now there would be an absolute personal truth and a truthful article as well.

  87. truthrdare

    December 10, 2015 at 6:26 pm

    One can not regulate or legislate the irresponsible, unjust, illegal or insane. Those efforts (law) are for those whom would abide by it. So you would criminalize the responsible to fail miserably at legislating the irresponsible? Your emotional attachment to that position ignores most statistics, factors and historical evidence to date. “Even more” is not a statistical reference. Site the CDC and FBI data base. Contrast it to research on lives saved. Note also, suicides are the single biggest factor. That would move to another column and means, honestly. Wear your seat belt however, I am glad you have made one wise choice. But please note by the way, they do not record seat belt and airbag related fatalities. So wise may not be accurate on my part.

  88. hippiecowboy420

    December 10, 2015 at 7:21 pm

    Let me tell you something they don’t speak for MOST VETERANS!

  89. Jeff Chang

    December 10, 2015 at 8:44 pm

    I have a question.
    That mass shooter, is he part of SEAL team 6? The Army Rangers? Delta Force?

    I just wonder because tunnel vision, identifying the enemies, and knowing how to shoot quickly and accurately are factors that the mass shooter has to deal with too.

  90. Peter Shaw

    December 10, 2015 at 10:34 pm

    I think most stats point out you are more likely to kill one of your family than a bad guy at home. I live in a country area. Miles 100 from the nearest swat team. We had an incident here recently. He gave him self up in the end as he grew tired of no hot opposition to play out his fantasy. No one was killed.

  91. Corey

    December 10, 2015 at 11:30 pm

    If you’re calling out someone for hiding, then maybe you shouldn’t hide behind a pseudonym. /shrug

  92. Corey

    December 10, 2015 at 11:41 pm

    I was present and at the scene when someone came to my high school during lunch and started shooting with a sawed-off shotgun. No one was killed because of a truly brave, good guy without a gun (but with highway patrol training). He used his intelligence and waited for an opening before tackling the shooter.

  93. Been There

    December 11, 2015 at 1:17 am

    Have any of you experts actually been in a hostile situation i.e a carjacking turned kidnapping situation for example? Have you felt the utter feeling of helplessness and fear? I have! I was within a trigger pull of losing my life to armed thugs on two different occasions and only by the grace of GOD did I survive. Ill tell you this – if you are EVER unfortunate enough to find yourself in a similar situation – the first thing you will say to yourself is WTF is happening followed shortly after by I WISH I HAD A GUN!!!! Believe that!!!!

  94. Gary

    December 11, 2015 at 1:31 am

    So I say let’s take away pepper spray from all the ladies who have it legally to protect themselves from attackers/rapists! Protecting yourself is really silly anyway cause the police will always be right there to do it for you right? No worries!

  95. Adam

    December 11, 2015 at 6:53 am

    Unfortunately, your options aren’t weather a mass shooter attacks an armed SWAT team member or a civilian. They’re going to attack civilians. Your options are armed or unarmed civilian.

    On the rare occasion they encounter armed civilians, things tend to end with a much lower body count than when they can take their time.

  96. Emily Garrigan

    December 11, 2015 at 6:59 am

    There are other tools to protect you in your home. Those tools include electronic warning devices, and even a couple of watchdogs. Even the police use trained dogs.
    The sound of a Doberman or Rotty growling has scared many a bad guy away, just as much as the sound of a bullet being chambered.
    Perhaps even more.

  97. Tim Trible

    December 11, 2015 at 7:40 am

    Actually facts and statistics back up the good guy with a gun claim. Opinions are like a##holes. Everyone has one. They are just that. An opinion. If you don’t like it I suggest you go get the 2nd amendment changed. Since a majority of state legislatures still believe in the Constitution, good luck with that. Until then STFU

  98. Hoshnasi

    December 11, 2015 at 11:20 am

    The article entire argument is a No True Scotsman Fallacy. The reality is, there are instances were people with a gun have frozen when faced with violence. There are other instances where they have NOT frozen, engaged the attacker and ENDED the altercation, with and without the loss of life.

    The argument, which has been repeated ad nauseam here is that “The un-trained will shoot the innocent”… Show me where that has played out. Give me the stats and lets talk about it.

    Whats funny is the people projecting a ‘fantasy world’ are the one that think the same argument about the untrained does ALSO relate to the would-be attackers. They to suffer all the ill-effects of being shot at. Any attempt to play-down that argument is imbuing the attackers super-human “movie hero” traits, which don’t exist.

    You can disagree with my carrying a gun, but at least be consistent and willing to discuss the ACTUAL risks. Don’t just make an emotional argument implying that innocents are shot by “good-guys”, but provide NO evidence to support it. That is called poisoning the well.

  99. Brad MacInnis

    December 11, 2015 at 1:50 pm

    Even when you’re sitting at home, fondling your gun and drinking Bud Lite, those cute Girl Guides selling cookies start to look like ay-rab terrists to you?

  100. bentonsv

    December 11, 2015 at 2:56 pm

    This article is a complete and total load of bullshit!

    There have been numerous documented examples of “a good guy with a gun” stopping “a bad guy with a gun”.

    By the way “Andrew”, you got LaPierre’s quote WRONG! It was actually: “The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun”. Sometimes the bad guy is stopped without killing him.

  101. juice

    December 11, 2015 at 5:22 pm

    You know a good starting point for commenting on an article, even if it’s going to be a stupid comment? Actually reading the article, It’s a great place to start.

  102. HD

    December 11, 2015 at 7:37 pm

    Many of those good guys with guns are the literally thousands of combat veterans, thousands more retired and former law enforcement officers, untold numbers of men and women who grew up the sons and daughters of veterans and law enforcement officers, and the millions more who grew up in the country learning the use of firearms at an early age. Don’t assume we’re all helpless in the face of aggression.

  103. GE

    December 11, 2015 at 9:48 pm

    Register your bullets and the strike pattern of your ordnance and have it entered into a database (like Soc Security) If you’re a good guy with a gun and stop the bad guy with a gun…you receive 3 gold stars to paste into your notebook.and receive a reward of corporate tax rates for a 5 year period……if you are a good guy with a gun and kill innocent people while going jhadi trying to be John Wayne….you do the time for the crime(s),and obstruction of justice and will be liable for any sentence a jury of your peers decides to judge you upon and your insurance company has the right to deny your claim , cancel your policy without notice and distance themselves any way they seem fit….Ya know ….just like taking responsibility for driving a motor vehicle…which you must register, have inspected annually and provide insurance for….Say a good guy with a car sees a bad guy with a car pass a stopped school bus illegally…..Do you also zip around the bus full of kids helter skelter-like and crash into the bad car with your good car…. just as you catch up to him/her the on ramp of the freeway at 7;45 in the AM ? I think not….if your ammo bears your ID number (SSN would work) on the jacket and projectile…and your registered strike pattern matches your ordnance…Your insurance company would bear the brunt of your accident/heroic deed….the public would have a way to honor/reward your goodguyness or punish you for your badguyness…..failure to register (i e take responsibilty) for your ordnance , strike pattern and ammo or any way of altering your ID numbers would be a state/municipality/federal offense….or if you lose control of your responsiblity thru theft/shady dealings/ etc….you will be prosecuted a min of 5 years and have the intials “I W O” (Irresponsible Weapon Owner) branded on your forehead…..That would be fair to both sides of this debate…..Just like the hoops you have to jump thru for the privilege of owning a motor vehicle…or a boat….or a trolling motor for your boat…or the trailer you use to get the boat to the lake/river or ocean….or private aircraft…or tractor/combine etc….etc…etc…

  104. Nelson

    December 12, 2015 at 10:43 am

    Total but shit. Trained is always better then untrained. However, I rather have a concealed carry holder around then nothing at all. The author of this article failed to include articles showing a c.c. holder saving the day.

  105. Chuck Haggard

    December 12, 2015 at 12:13 pm

    Statistically more people are saved by defensive guns uses than are killed.

    That is a fact.

    Your emotion filled argument is demonstrably false.

  106. DL

    December 12, 2015 at 1:29 pm

    You can’t equate combat to shooting a bad guy here in the States. The guy that was armed should have taken out the shooter at the college campus. I would have done it for sure. I don’t run or hide from gunfire because I know I can do something and save some lives. I am an excellent shot and would have taken him out before he could have shot anyone else. I wouldn’t hide. I spent 30 years active and reserve in the Army with two combat tours and I would have gone and taken him out. Can you live with yourself if people die because you failed to act when you knew you could make a difference? The kid did it on the train, what is the difference now? He could have saved some lives. If the cops show up he puts down the gun and shows them his/her concealed carry permit…geez, now good people are going to get killed because someone could have taken out the threat. Sad, just sad….

  107. DL

    December 12, 2015 at 1:30 pm

    Exactly right Adam…

  108. Chad Brick

    December 12, 2015 at 4:18 pm

    Having a gun in your home vastly increasing your risk of suicide, being shot, an shooting an innocent. Ditto for everyone in your home.

    You need to get over your paranoia about murder-mad home invaders. This is simply so rare that you shouldn’t even be considering it.

  109. Jeff

    December 12, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    Just because there is media coverage concerning some random persons opinion on the latest hot topic does not give them instant credibility. They fired their weapon on the battlefield. Just like tens of thousands of other veterans. Great. Unless they are in a situation where their wife and children are clinging to them for life and praying that daddy protects them do they have an opinion as to whether a gun should be in the hands of civilians. If you have not been in this situation, shut it! I for one would do everything in my power to protect my own.

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  111. AREFGEE

    December 13, 2015 at 10:25 am

    Put your faith in God- not guns !

  112. James

    December 14, 2015 at 7:21 am

    You may have an argument for training but a good guy with a gun at least has a chance when under attack as opposed to a good guy without a gun under attack. To argue the contrary is simply foolish.

  113. willbill51

    December 15, 2015 at 4:43 am

    “Speaking from experience, the veterans said that gun owners cannot simply become heroes in high stress situations.”

    This is nothing but speculation on their part. The inconvenient fact is that criminologists have found that U.S. citizens use firearms for self-defense 2.5 million times a year, and for every life that is lost to firearms 65 lives are saved in self-defense.

    In addition, the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.

    Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern) Guns and Violence Symposium, vol. 86, no. 1, 1995: 150.

    http://concealedguns.procon.org/sourcefiles/Kleckarmed.pdf

    http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html

    Suter E. “Guns in the Medical Literature – A Failure of Peer
Review.” Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia. March 1994; 83: 133-48.

    “Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms.” Research in Brief, United States Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice

    In addition, mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens.

    Psychologists stops a mass shooting in a hospital.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704715/Multiple-injuries-reported-shots-fired-Pennsylvania-hospital.html#readerCommentsCommand-message-field

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/03/do-civilians-with-guns-ever-stop-mass-shootings/

  114. willbill51

    December 15, 2015 at 5:05 am

    “Instead, you and your families are 4-5 times more likely to be murdered by family, killed in accidental shootings, or use the gun to successfully commit suicide.”

    FALSE!

    Your statement is based on the Washington State and Cleveland studies and others that have long since been debunked. They only counted cases of self-defense where the attackers were shot and killed, but in the majority of cases where a firearm is used in self-defense, the gun is not fired. So if someone attacked me and I chased the attacker off with a firearm or if I shot the attacker who later recovered from his/her wounds those would not be counted as self-defense. They would count cases where the attacker was a total stranger, but often victims are acquainted with their attackers. So, if a woman’s estranged husband attacks her and she shoots and kills him the studies would be counted that as killing a friend or loved one and not self-defense. Shootings in businesses and guns brought into the home from the outside we counted as guns kept in the home, and they only looked at places where shootings took place and ignored the millions of homes where guns were kept without incident.
    Furthermore, it has been found that 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun[1], and criminologists have found that U.S. citizens use firearms for self-defense 2.5 million times a year.[2]
    In addition, the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives. [3]

    [1] Suter E. “Guns in the Medical Literature – A Failure of Peer
Review.” Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia. March 1994; 83:
133-48.
    [2]Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern) Guns and Violence Symposium, vol. 86, no. 1, 1995: 150.
    [3] “Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms.” Research in Brief, United States Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice

  115. Bernie

    December 15, 2015 at 11:27 am

    I’m a combat vet, I’m trained and I carry. My wife is not a combat vet, she’s trained by me, and she carries. We’re not looking to be “heroes” but sure as hell won’t be victims.

  116. Bernie

    December 15, 2015 at 11:41 am

    Are you talking to police officials, the same one criticising all LE for police brutality? Are the police the only ones to be armed?

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  118. Jim VanOwen (@JimVanOwen)

    December 15, 2015 at 1:30 pm

    That’s great — hope that trust isn’t something not to be found in a situation where abandoning your natural right of self-defense proves fatal to you or your loved ones. Your kowtowing and subservience is much appreciated in both threatening and non-threatening circumstances by those who like to control other people; why, you’re even willing to handcuff yourself.

  119. Bob Talley

    December 15, 2015 at 5:47 pm

    Enforce existing gun laws instead of adding more
    http://www.bgdailynews.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editor/enforce-existing-gun-laws-instead-of-adding-more/article_ca33e4ea-28e5-56d2-8058-34975e435a6d.html

    We don’t need gun control.

    We need to enforce the laws we already have. Guns do not kill people. People who have no respect for life kill people. Now folks, I’m a USAF Storm/Shield veteran. I am a Republican. I am a man who embraces the 2nd Amendment. If you don’t wish to own a firearm, that’s fine, just don’t prevent me from owning mine. The worst crime rates and murders are in the places with the strictest gun control but liberals remain mute on that point. It’s hypocritical and just plain wrong that it’s often the richest who live behind iron gates and security fences and who have armed bodyguards who scream loudest about gun control and more of it. Hillary Clinton just recently ranted on about more gun control and even wanting to hold gun sellers and manufacturers accountable.

    So, by her logic, are we going to sue Ford and Chevy every time someone gets hurt or killed in a car accident? Are we going to sue radio stations and music artists for us going deaf because we turned up the music too loud? What happened to taking personal accountability for our own actions? As for the people who killed all those folks in California, it’s clear to everyone they were Islamic terrorists, yet President Barack Obama fails to acknowledge it. It wasn’t workplace violence or disgruntled neighbors.

    Political correctness is a cancer killing us all, as individuals and as a nation.
    Bob Talley / Bowling Green, KY
    Voter / Taxpayer / Vet

  120. Wiliam Deitrick

    December 15, 2015 at 8:26 pm

    Right there are a lot of us (trained a few thousands myself) that could probably kick their asses.

  121. Wiliam Deitrick

    December 15, 2015 at 8:31 pm

    So how many of these “combat veterans” have you got in your house? They sure as hell don’t speak for most gun owners including a hell of a lot of veterans. Your trust is totally misplaced. How really stupid are you????

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  123. Brian

    December 24, 2015 at 8:50 pm

    I sure would rather have the option to protect myself or others, rather than just die without a chance. It doesn’t matter if you agree with this article to me. I have the right to bear arms, and I will do so. One day you may thank someone like me. I don’t agree with your stats on gun owners and gun deaths. Gun safety is something that should be taught to everyone even at a young age. Just because someone committed suicide with a gun doesn’t mean they would not have used the next available method. What you do or don’t do with a gun is your business, I suggest you stay out of my business.

  124. Melvin Woods

    December 25, 2015 at 12:01 am

    There are veterans that are proficient in stopping an active shooter in their tracks who are now civilians…….These veterans do not know what the hell they are talking about!!!

  125. harmony church

    December 28, 2015 at 3:17 pm

    These “combat vets” if they actually exist are liberal puppets for gun control ……..nothing more nothing less!!! I served from 1987 to 2010 and 16 of those years was Infantry. I do not know anyone I served with who does not support the NRA!!! This story is exactly that a story!

  126. harmony church

    December 28, 2015 at 3:21 pm

    Right on Brother!

  127. Alan L. Hughes

    January 5, 2016 at 5:50 pm

    Bob Talley, thanks for your service. Last week, I asked a peer wearing a Vietnam” cap, “Where and when did you serve?” His response, “Germany…oh, the cap…that means ‘Vietnam Era’.” From your uninformed observations, even childish contrasts, it is obvious you are ‘Storm/Shield Era’. No one in the history of the U.S. has advocated preventing a stable, responsible citizen from owning a firearm, nor are they, now; that is the usual, stale, NRA rhetoric. Singling out one senseless slaughter, contrasting it with any of the other 30,000 annual gun deaths…now that is brilliant, as is outlandish emotional fantasy about “strictest gun control”, another lie from the NRA manifesto. As for the automobile, etc., arguments, surely you must sympathize with the Japanese airbag designers, then, in repeating, “Airbags don’t kill, airbags don’t kill….” Bob, just as some people OBVIOUSLY should not CONTINUE designing safety equipment, SOME people SHOULD be prevented from pulling triggers. Respectfully, combat veteran, Central Highlands, SVN, ’68; now, retired educator.

  128. Will Suszter Pelles

    January 8, 2016 at 5:02 pm

    Oh liberals you try so hard! Good guy with a gun has worked multiple times

  129. Will Suszter Pelles

    January 8, 2016 at 5:03 pm

    Are you sure you want to go here?

  130. Mike Dehart

    January 9, 2016 at 2:42 am

    Bulls**t Clackmas mall was a recent example of the “good guy with a gun”. Nice try Libards. THIS veteran is glad to see people pushing back against the gun control nuts. The same people, in most cases, who have never served, never will and are deathly afraid of anyone who has.

  131. Jimmy

    January 9, 2016 at 7:09 am

    So tired of vets who think that without combat experience, you can’t possibly have a viable opinion on guns or engagement. Secondly, it comes down to freedom, I would think you would understand that.

  132. Molonlabe23

    January 9, 2016 at 7:28 am

    Everyday there are news stories like the 65 year grandma who who shot the muggers on her way home, or the mom who held hostage but broke free and got to her gun and shot down the the intruders, I respect these serviceman and thier sacrifice to this country, but the facts out way this story. This just a liberal trying to use twist what these guys are saying to fit the anti gun agenda.

  133. Coyote Actual

    January 9, 2016 at 8:31 am

    “No one in the history of the U.S. has advocated preventing a stable, responsible citizen from owning a firearm”

    Other than Diane Feinstein, Ladd Everitt, Shannon Watts, Michael Bloomberg, Rosie O’Donnell, Joshua Horowitz, Michael Beard, Jan Schakowsky, Andrew Cuomo, Eric Holder…

    All of these people are on record saying nobody other than MIL/LE should have a firearm.

    If you’re going to make a statement on something, at least make a truthful one.

    Respectfully, combat veteran Phoenix Academy/COIN CFE AT/FP OIC Camp Taji 07-08

  134. Sanity Reigns

    January 9, 2016 at 9:15 am

    …and don’t forget, drugs don’t kill people. People kill themselves. NO DRUG should be made illegal to get or obtained as defined by the right in my pursuit of happiness. No licensing or requirements to drive cars either. Cars don’t kill people. Grenades or bombs don’t kill people. We don’t need drug laws or any bomb laws either. You sir, are a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say. Oh and yes….I’m a retired Vet as well. So what?

  135. Sanity Reigns

    January 9, 2016 at 9:18 am

    Oh you conservatives. Not one case of a “good guy with a gun” stopping or slower down any mass shootings.

  136. molonlabe23

    January 9, 2016 at 12:46 pm

    That’s because they are always in gun free zones you liberals thinks work so well and that only law abiding citizens obey. So we can’t bring our guns in there. Did you ever stop to think about that!

  137. Derek Taylor

    January 10, 2016 at 1:59 am

    Hi Mr. Tailey, big respect for your service sir, I come from a long line of army family service also, but I cannot agree with your comment about “Places with the strictest gun controls having the worst crime rates and murder rates.”
    I live in the UK, and since the Hungerford massacre and Dunblane shootings, there has been a total ban on guns being owned privately, except by sportsmen and shotguns by farmers for control of vermin. This means the ONlY people to carry guns legally, are the police, and the armed forces. De facto any one else carrying a gun is a criminal, Even our police do not carry weapons except for specially trained SO19 units, who are called upon as and when needed. As to our murder rates, in the last year we have had 68 recorded gun homicides in the WHOLE COUNTRY, as opposed to over 2,000 in the DC area alone in the last 14 months. I rather suspect you need to look at your “facts” again and reconsider.

  138. Snuffy

    January 11, 2016 at 10:08 am

    “If she had a gun and someone came in a building and started shooting people, I assure you she would be able to shoot that person ” — that’s not the issue. The issue is if as she whips out her weapon, *another* armed patriot sees her, thinks she is the bad guy, and blows her away. Then *another* patriot sees the first patriot and blows *him* away. Etc.

  139. Jim

    January 12, 2016 at 10:44 am

    Sanity reigns, you are incorrect. A simple Google search of a good guy with a gun stops a mass shooting will show there have been numerous cases of an armed citizen stopping or preventing a mass shooting.

  140. Brian

    January 13, 2016 at 12:50 pm

    Really? Then let’s broaden your mind a bit and go back in history a short span. 2007 in Colorado SPrings CO where at a Church exactly that happened.

    Not good enough? Ok. Internet Cafe in FL where a 71 year old CC holder drove off armed robbers who had guns.

    Oct 1997 Luke Woodham.. that ring any bells as he invaded his school intent to kill as many as he could and was stopped cold by who? His own principal.

    April 24, 1998 Parker middle school. Another active shooter who opens fire inside a dance. Killed once before he was stopped by James Strand

    Jan 16, 2002 43 year old former student returns to Appalachian School or Law and kills 3, wounds 3 before being stopped by 2 students.

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  141. KiloSierra07

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  142. Gregg

    January 15, 2016 at 6:12 am

    T-mobile in Chicago this week disproved the veteran’s thinking.

  143. Mitchell

    January 16, 2016 at 10:57 am

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  144. Ryan

    January 17, 2016 at 2:23 pm

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  145. Tom

    January 18, 2016 at 7:47 am

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    At s church service gunman kilks 2 people outside church. Enters the building to kill more. Woman sees gunman, pulks her gun and kills the shooter.

    Just two of thousands of cases where a good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun.

    When Japan was in the early stages of planning their Attack on Pearl Harbor, it was suggested that they include ground forces to take and hold Hawaii. The only reason they didn’t was because Adm. Yamamoto said “If we invade the US, there will be s man behind every blade of grass with a gun.”

  146. Tom

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    So guns are banned yet the criminals still get them.

    Didn’t a terrorist recently behead a member of your military on the streets of London in broad daylight?

    What about other crimes like rape, robbery, assault, etc… all gave increased since you banned guns.

    Before the ban how many Bobbies carried guns and how many do now?

    Washington DC also had a total ban on handgun ownership, and strict rules on owning a rifle. For a long time it was the murder capital of the US.

    Lets look at two recent incidents. Both similar…

    2 heavily armed gunman choose to attack a soft target. The first two a museum, the second two an office party.

    The two who attacked the museum did so in Texas and an armed man shot and killed the terrorists and took a bullet to the leg. He only had a hand gun against 2 men with AK-47’s.

    The two who attacked the office party did so in California. 21 dead dozens injured, and hundreds of police officers and a running gun battle on the highways to stop them.

    The difference Texas embraces an armed citizenry, California wants all guns outlawed.

  147. Lisa Havner

    February 7, 2016 at 5:05 am

    My husband is a veteran as am I. We despise the NRA. They used to be for gun safety before LaPierre became their puppet who helps gun manufactures.

  148. Lisa Havner

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    You are stereotyping. My husband, brother, father and myself are liberal veterans. Background checks for all personal sales does not equal taking your guns. Only a selfish person would believe being slightly inconvenienced isn’t worth the life it could save. My husband carries concealed. Many liberals do. We just aren’t paranoid about Obama trying to confiscate our guns. Get out of your conservative bubble.

  149. Daniel

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