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Neil deGrasse Tyson: If you believe in the Christian story of Jesus, you can’t call Scientology ‘crazy’

In the wake of HBO’s devastating documentary on Scientology entitled “Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief,” astrophysicist and cosmologist Neil deGrasse Tyson came out in defense of the controversial church – kinda.

In the wake of HBO’s devastating documentary on Scientology entitled “Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief,” astrophysicist and cosmologist Neil deGrasse Tyson came out in defense of the controversial church – kinda.

In an interview with The Daily Beast, Tyson refused to join the chorus of people bashing the church, which is alleged to have abused members and harassed critics, saying that people have the right to believe whatever they want.

“So, you have people who are certain that a man in a robe transforms a cracker into the literal body of Jesus saying that what goes on in Scientology is crazy? Let’s realize this. What matters is not who says who’s crazy, what matters is we live in a free country. You can believe whatever you want, otherwise it’s not a free country—it’s something else. If we start controlling what people think and why they think it, we have case studies where that became the norm. I don’t care what the tenets are of Scientology. They don’t distract me. I don’t judge them, and I don’t criticize them.”

In regards to the church’s tax-exempt status, Tyson was then asked what he thought about Scientology critics who say the organization should not be considered a religion.

But why aren’t they a religion? … [Who] is to say that one religion is rational and another isn’t? It looks like the older those thoughts have been around, the likelier it is to be declared a religion. If you’ve been around 1,000 years you’re a religion, and if you’ve been around 100 years, you’re a cult. That’s how people want to divide the kingdom. Religions have edited themselves over the years to fit the times, so I’m not going to sit here and say Scientology is an illegitimate religion and other religions are legitimate religions. They’re all based on belief systems. Look at Mormonism! There are ideas that are as space-exotic within Mormonism as there are within Scientology, and it’s more accepted because it’s a little older than Scientology is, so are we just more accepting of something that’s older?

You can read the full interview here.

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83 Comments

83 Comments

  1. Nick

    April 4, 2015 at 9:48 am

    “So, you have people who are certain that a man in a robe transforms a cracker into the literal body of Jesus” it was at this point I realized he knew nothing about Christians.

  2. Joseph Bennett

    April 4, 2015 at 6:15 pm

    Neil is Honestly a Badass

  3. Bobby Garringer

    April 4, 2015 at 6:27 pm

    I have read, thought about and considered believing — all kinds of theology and philosophy. On a rational basis: I came to believe that (1) Israel is unique among the nations (2) Jesus Christ is unique among all people and (3) the church is unique among all human associations. All are unique — and adequately confirmed — in their historical witness to the reality and revelation of God.

    Tyson compares the prophetic, Messianic and apostolic faith of Christians to Scientology and Mormonism (two religious systems that I studied, closely, and found unconvincing). He cheapens our faith and ridicules Christians as those who think a priest can miraculously transform a cracker. He wants to reduce all religions to the level of the non-rational.

    By defining religion as something that cannot be discussed for truth-content, he makes it an easy task to both “approve” of virtually all religions and then ignore them all. It is his approach that is non-rational and intellectually fruitless.

  4. Ann H Tearle

    April 4, 2015 at 7:53 pm

    Agree Bobby Garringer–and thank you for your post. Well said.

  5. James Austin

    April 4, 2015 at 8:24 pm

    It may not apply to you personally, but it definitely does apply to some. You cannot limit the extremes of other people’s “crazy” by your own personal standards.

  6. dragonfartmaster

    April 4, 2015 at 9:38 pm

    He’s speaking of Catholicism. That’s one of the main differences between Catholic and protestant belief.

  7. DangerOnion

    April 4, 2015 at 10:59 pm

    That is literally what the current Catholic catechism says.

    “By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity.”

    You may not like it, but it’s the official policy of the Catholic Church.

  8. rubertpurtle

    April 4, 2015 at 11:07 pm

    In the Roman Catholic church it is believed that a priest does indeed change a cracker into the literal body of Christ – and wine into his blood. That is one differentiation between Catholicism and Protestantism (which believes the sacrament is a representation).

  9. popephred

    April 5, 2015 at 1:12 am

    He is referring to the belief in transubstantiation: “(in Latin, transsubstantiatio, in Greek μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is the change whereby, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, the bread and the wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist become, not merely as by a sign or a figure, but also in actual reality the body and blood of Christ.”

  10. popephred

    April 5, 2015 at 1:30 am

    I’m not sure he was cheapening your faith. I think it was merely dismissing it. In your defense, I don’t really see evidence of the rationality of Christianity. NDK pointed out the Catholic tenant of transubstantiation. Catholicism is one of the leading sects in Christian faith, and serves as a fair comparison. One man’s transubstantiation is another man’s E-Meter .

  11. funkinthenight

    April 5, 2015 at 3:26 am

    Define transubstantiation

  12. Bryan

    April 5, 2015 at 3:44 am

    What he’s describing is something Catholics believe. So, in fact, he does.

  13. Bobby Garringer

    April 5, 2015 at 5:11 am

    “To dismiss” is to worse than “to cheapen.” Dismissal — from rational discussion — reduces a matter to the level of a zero. When you say that you do not see evidence of the rationality of Christianity, I’m not sure if you mean that it: (1) is clearly non-rational as Tyson believes or (2) you rationally considered its evidence (which is real, discussable evidence) and found that the evidence fell short. If you mean the latter, then you do not agree with Tyson; and we have simply reached different conclusions.

  14. Solip

    April 5, 2015 at 8:32 am

    I’m not sure he meant that kind of cracker

  15. Jimmy

    April 5, 2015 at 9:01 am

    “By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity.”

    You may not like it, but it’s the official policy of the Catholic Church.
    You should also study your religion a little more, before you go off proving you know less than the one you just judged. Who knows more about Christianity now?

  16. TruthHurts

    April 5, 2015 at 3:42 pm

    Says the TV “scientist”…

  17. Sally Ann

    April 5, 2015 at 11:21 pm

    He’s saying that all religions are the same. Believers believe, followers follow, and they both pretty much think that those outside their faith are heathen.

  18. JJJ Schmidt

    April 6, 2015 at 1:59 am

    Define “on a rational basis”, BG.

  19. mancreatedgod

    April 6, 2015 at 9:03 pm

    Right on Neil! Well said.

  20. mancreatedgod

    April 6, 2015 at 9:22 pm

    Sorry Bobby, but a story written about a prophet, regardless of who that particular prophet is, is not “evidence” of that prophet or his/her god. Additionally, something you or I don’t understand is also not evidence of a god. Christianity, just like most other religions, picks and chooses from its guidance document (the Bible) to reference whatever narrative it is telling at the time, conveniently ignoring those verses that contradict or disprove its rationality. Remember, the term “evidence” is based in science and fact, not belief, superstition, or hearsay. I respect your beliefs; however, once you claim that those beliefs are fact, you better be ready for fact-based criticism.

  21. gerryfisher61

    April 6, 2015 at 10:22 pm

    He’s saying that we shouldn’t stop at rethinking Scientology and it’s effects on society at large. We should keep going and apply the same scrutiny to the effect that all religions have on us both individually and on a societal level.

  22. John D

    April 6, 2015 at 11:05 pm

    There is a simple answer to the tax question. As a Christian I say that the US government should tax all Churches regardless of denomination. Perhaps you give a lower tax rate, that I can tolerate. But I cannot tolerate even as a member of a religion a body of people in an organization not being taxed because they believe in something. In fact because the religion believes in something is why it should be taxed – it should believe in humanity and the equal responsibility and participation in society.

  23. CHRIS ILLER

    April 7, 2015 at 12:34 am

    Niel is correct for the most part. I agree that every religion is wacky in its own way. Who is to say what is real and what isn’t. But…but, if people are made to disappear, get thrown off boats, punished for having bad thoughts, have your kids kidnapped, and people made to make you suffer under blackmail…that’s gotta stop. No matter the religion. Wars have to stop because of religion too. We are also…allowed to our own opinions. That voice should not be taken away either. That’s what makes the USA great. You can have any wacky religion you want…but you can also say whatever you want about other wacky religions. Just don’t hurt people. That’s the law. Scientology is not above the law. Either are members of other churches.

  24. Dave (@__nlnn_nnln__)

    April 7, 2015 at 3:35 am

    “He wants to reduce all religions to the level of the non-rational.”

    NDK didn’t reduce anything. Religions are not rational or logical. He just made a correct observation. Is it rational to believe a donkey or a burning bush can talk?

  25. Dave (@__nlnn_nnln__)

    April 7, 2015 at 3:44 am

    There are plenty of examples that apply to all christ blood cults. I prefer to reference the talking donkey and burning bush. That’s as ridiculous as the cracker tale. Noah’s ark is a pretty absurd tale as well. If a flood of the magnitude described in the buybull actually had occurred nothing would have survived. The rain would have destroyed everything completely and since there are structures standing that predates the buybull that proves that the flood didn’t happen as described in the buybull fable.

  26. michele.riverte@gmail.com

    April 7, 2015 at 11:41 am

    Yeah, But it’s the labeling people suppressive persons, dividing families, making people slave labor, and wearing Nazi-looking military uniforms and saluting a science fiction writing tax evader that kinda of read cult to me.

  27. Robert

    April 7, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    In this case Neil is an idiot. The biggest problem with Scientology is their attacks on the professions of psychology and psychiatry because of the threat of those professions curing and treating people denies Scientology potential victims. Sometimes Neil needs to stop and think before he speaks.

  28. Bladewalker

    April 7, 2015 at 1:35 pm

    ALL religions are irrational cults.

  29. Dave Williams

    April 7, 2015 at 4:21 pm

    You go, Neil!!! All metaphysics is HORSE HOCKEY, and the sooner the human race wakes up and grows up, the better.

  30. gestter

    April 7, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    and this is when i realised that Nick doesn’t know anything about christianity.

  31. gestter

    April 7, 2015 at 7:59 pm

    “he makes it an easy task to both “approve” of virtually all religions and then ignore them all”

    there you go buddy boy, that’s the answer… all religions are equally rediculous, and all religions are equally “ignoreable”

  32. MarcG

    April 7, 2015 at 8:29 pm

    Basically…”When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

    and “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.”
    Stephen Roberts

  33. Marc

    April 7, 2015 at 8:30 pm

    Basically…”I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do”.

    And..
    When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours”

  34. Bobby Garringer

    April 8, 2015 at 2:02 am

    Whether or not a donkey talked or a the Angel of the Lord spoke from a burning bush has nothing directly to do with reason or logic.

    I know of several people who — in response to prayer — experienced immediate healing from both chronic and terminal illnesses. In one case, attending nurses fainted. In other cases, intensive documentation confirmed the healings, and doctors said there was no medical explanation for what happened.

    Many people came to believe in Christ because of these healings.

    No one involved was being illogical or unreasonable for what they experienced in these cases.

    Maybe you don’t believe such things are possible. If so, that’s your decision, but you are not being more logical or reasonable than those of us who do. In fact, I would say that you are being less reasonable.

  35. AntiLoveGod

    April 8, 2015 at 2:17 am

    You know what’s totally irrational? Love. It’s a series of chemical reactions that make people behave in totally illogical ways and has spilled more blood and caused more trauma religion ever did. Every husband that ever terrorized his wife. Every woman that struck her child, Every jilted husband or lover that ever killed. They all did it for the distorted, warped, mindless “feelings” that swarm around love.

    And what’s worse? We don’t need it! It used to be necessary to advance the species and hold civilization together, but science and logic can do that now. Still we hold on to silly, pointless, stupid “love.”

    How pathetic human beings insist on being. Wake up people!

  36. Bobby Garringer

    April 8, 2015 at 2:18 am

    The ease of Tyson’s method is that he claims that any form of religious idea or statement is non-rational (by definition), not that they are irrational (by reason of research). His definition of religion makes it unnecessary for him to do any research into the content of any religion whatsoever. But his definition is merely assumptive — I would say, it is presumptive.

    You apparently, have carefully investigated all religions and found nothing rational in them. If you have not, then you are making a claim that you cannot support. (Do you recognize that you are not saying what Tyson said?)

    I think that all you really meant to say was that you will not believe in God, no matter what is said or who says it. But that doesn’t make your case and doesn’t establish that you are more reasonable than people who believe.

    I have investigated many religions and found some of them rational in some aspects and lacking in others. But — in the case of the prophetic, Messianic and apostolic faith — I have found the claims clear enough, and the evidences adequate enough, to be convincing.

  37. Bobby Garringer

    April 8, 2015 at 2:23 am

    I think the best explanation for what happened in Israel at the time of Christ is: he said and did the kinds of things recorded in the gospels, and he adequately demonstrated that he is the Son of God, as he claimed.

    Similarly, I think the best explanation for the existence and experiences of Israel is that the nation was established by the living God. And the same goes for the earliest church.

    Other explanations and objections fall short of the best explanation.

  38. Kay

    April 8, 2015 at 2:24 am

    AGREED Nick!!! Thank you for that.

  39. Bobby Garringer

    April 8, 2015 at 2:31 am

    I’m ready for fact-based criticism, because I have a fact-based faith.

    Certain things happened in the first century, surrounding the man, Jesus Christ. I think those who were nearest to him — persons he called and trained — have left adequate testimony concerning him. This is where my faith begins.

    I have read and considered the writings of many who seek to undermine this faith and have found that they are unconvincing.

  40. Bobby Garringer

    April 8, 2015 at 2:33 am

    No, he’s saying that we need to scrutinize no religion. To him, religions is false by definition, not by investigation.

  41. Bobby Garringer

    April 8, 2015 at 2:40 am

    His claim is that they are non-rational, not irrational. None is crazier than another, and none is more rational than another, because they are all non-rational. Believe one of them if you want, according to Tyson, but there is no ground for criticizing any other.

  42. Bobby Garringer

    April 8, 2015 at 2:50 am

    You are making a statement about the nature of metaphysics. Your claim is itself a metaphysical claim, stated dogmatically, as a universal reality — not describing something you have experienced in the physical world.

    And your statement is, logically, self-defeating. You are affirming what you deny, and denying what you affirm.

    Tyson is involved in a similar fallacy.

  43. Michael Thomas

    April 8, 2015 at 9:32 am

    You sir, just demonstrated how little you know about a particular religion and transubstantiation. Read a little more and you might learn something new.

  44. Matthew Rohner

    April 8, 2015 at 10:21 am

    … which Nick might know, if he knew anything about Christians.

  45. Alexander

    April 8, 2015 at 10:42 am

    And which Gospels do we rely on for verification of Christ’s acts? Surely not the set that contradict each other. There must be a different version of the Gospels you’ve had access to.

  46. 666

    April 8, 2015 at 10:45 am

    To me and many people as well

  47. InTheBeginningManCreatedGod-ThenTheTroubleStarted

    April 8, 2015 at 11:32 am

    PEOPLES FRONT OF JUDEA!
    JUDEAN PEOPLES FRONT!

  48. Christopher Cole

    April 8, 2015 at 11:59 am

    According to Wikipedia (so take it with a grain of salt): Transubstantiation (in Latin, transsubstantiatio, in Greek μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is the change whereby, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, the bread and the wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist become, not merely as by a sign or a figure, but also in actual reality the body and blood of Christ.

  49. Christopher Cole

    April 8, 2015 at 11:59 am

    Transubstantiation is the change whereby, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, the bread and the wine used in the sacrament of the Eucharist become, not merely as by a sign or a figure, but also in actual reality the body and blood of Christ.

  50. Danae Deal

    April 8, 2015 at 1:00 pm

    Pretty sure he knows more about than you do.

  51. Danae Deal

    April 8, 2015 at 1:06 pm

    I’m pretty sure he has investigated religion.

  52. Luke

    April 8, 2015 at 4:36 pm

    Precisely what I was thinking.

  53. Matthew

    April 8, 2015 at 4:54 pm

    Please do enlighten us Bobby with this “fact-based” rational evidence you speak of. 2000 year-old texts riddled with contradictions, inconsistencies, and outrageous stories? You’ve so fallen so far down the rabbit hole that you’ve lost all rational perspective. Sad, really.

  54. Aaron Mishou

    April 8, 2015 at 9:43 pm

    Umm… that’s Catholicism. That’s exactly how they view the wafer at communion. So he obviously knows more than you.

  55. roadworker

    April 8, 2015 at 10:22 pm

    “He wants to reduce all religions to the level of the non-rational.”

    There is nothing rational about your or anybody else’s religion, so there is no reduction involved. The thing that characterises religion is that it is a system that exists outside of the realm of reason. That’s why we call it faith. You believe in your system, despite it not being supported by reason or logic or evidence.

    What cheapens anybody’s faith is trying to have it both ways. Insisting on its veracity on the one hand while refusing to apply the normal rules of logic, reason and evidence to it on the other. Faith is at its purest and most worthy of respect when it concerns a spiritual realm that is outside the physical realm and for which neither reason or physical proof are necessary.

  56. Robert Dees

    April 8, 2015 at 11:22 pm

    God is a functional impossibility. Ignore religion and its many other claimes Just the DIETY is imppossible. If you accept that god is the creator figure He must actually be the only True thing- so where does he require anything? desires make sense for creatures, We a product of the things around us- we have limits not because of restrictions but because we were built up from little things to bigger things.But god would be the only thing. how does one make a decision? whats there to decide? how does something with no need for emotion or reason get the urge to create them? To me the concept of god is self defeating. all powerful creator figures wouldnt have problems so theyd never create anything. Faith is by nature against reason- it lacks proper skepticism. Whether one can be convinced is also irrelivant; because millions are convinced of islam too. by choosing between any of them you have to deny all of the others. And theres no functional reason to accept any of them to begin with. Not from a scientific perspective.

  57. Bobby Garringer

    April 8, 2015 at 11:27 pm

    This is no place to get specific. Just as you have not been specific…

  58. katyajohann

    April 8, 2015 at 11:43 pm

    You do realize that none of those testimonies (or Gospels) were written by the people nearest him – they were written decades later – certainly after those people had died. The actual “facts” of Jesus’ life are few and far between and none of them support the major events of the Gospels. There are fascinating sources on what actually exists regarding the historical Jesus. Also – Just because you dismiss facts as “unconvincing” doesn’t make them untrue- it just means you don’t believe them. I hate to tell you, but your faith is no more “fact-based” than any other religion. And i’m sure you will find that conveniently “unconvincing” as well!

  59. krag76

    April 9, 2015 at 5:12 am

    Yes,because all those stories of talking snakes ,walking on water,rising from the dead and floating up into the sky are not as crazy as turning water into wine.

  60. Luiz Fernando Zadra

    April 9, 2015 at 5:54 am

    How lovely when people think others need a full course in Fairiology to dismiss their fairy tales. In a world where we have 30K+ different Christian denominations that can’t even agree on the basics of salvation, to blame others for not understanding YOUR interpretation of YOUR cherry-picked author is at best a joke, and a bad one.

  61. Dawndellynn Marie Kral

    April 9, 2015 at 10:31 am

    I can relate to all of this. My husband grew up Apostolic and when we met he was no longer participating in the church. Years later, he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. Must of triggered all his upbringing back. Refuses to take medication and thinks all doctors are Witch Doctors. I am astonished by the lack of support his family has for him, They believe that he is dealing with spirits, they believe that he is fighting with his flesh, and states that he was born with a sound of mind. His mother having a Bachelor Degree in Education mind you, contradicts research and proven diseases of the mind are of existence. She believes is alcohol is a disease, but not diseases of the brain. Tries to tell me over and over it is all about the experience of the live in God. Tells me I am gonna burn in hell and my daughter because of my sins. All argument, all that seems to be educated in the church is hate against gays, waiting for the end of days to prove their point that Jesus is living, and don’t go to the doctor because we don’t believe in Psychriatirc treatment. Although they believe in the power of God to heal, mind you, they are the first people to the doctor, the first people to the denist, and use man made products to kill bacteria. I grew up Catholic, and they hate me with a passion and state that I am false to praise a different God. All the while, I don’t practice any religion anymore. To say the least Bobby, I understand there are some things in this world we may never have the concept to explain or fathom why it happened but why the hate? Why the persecution? if you are really talking about Jesus Christ, as far as I knew he didn’t have a church, Peter started the church for him. He ate and talked to criminals and prostitutes on the edge of society. Why can’t that be your religions purpose as well. If God does exist, I am sure he gave us a brain to use, you say he created us and made us in his image, than why is science even questionable.

  62. Sam

    April 9, 2015 at 2:11 pm

    Please tell us how that everything that happened in the first century is more significant and important than what happened after in the next 19 centuries.

  63. pandabutt

    April 9, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    Faith is literally believing in something without proof so no, Bobby, you do not have fact based faith.. the definition of those words simply don’t allow it.

  64. jason

    April 9, 2015 at 6:39 pm

  65. Bobby Garringer

    April 10, 2015 at 4:36 pm

    The significance of an event or series of events does not depend on chronology. When a thing happened is not as important as what happened.

  66. Adrian M. Kleinbergen

    April 15, 2015 at 2:27 pm

    That’s not the point of what he was trying to get across.

  67. Adrian M. Kleinbergen

    April 15, 2015 at 2:30 pm

    I mean that is not what Tyson’s point is.

  68. Arnold Gill

    April 17, 2015 at 7:12 pm

    Not only Catholicism. It is also true in various synods within the Lutheran church, and quite likely the Church of England/Anglican as well. I think the further removed one is from Catholicism, the less likely it is to be a belief in it.

    Of course, I am shocked that all of those biblical literalists _don’t_ believe it – after all, the words are “This is MY body, this is MY blood.” Anyway….

  69. Ethan

    April 27, 2015 at 4:04 pm

    You put scientist in quotes as if he is not in fact a scientist. There is definite evidence that Mr. Tyson is a scientist. The reason he has been on TV is that he also happens to be very well spoken and has the ability to convey scientific ideas to those without the education and training that he has acquired.

  70. Chuckmo

    April 27, 2015 at 9:35 pm

    That’s an example from the Roman Catholic mass, Nick.

  71. mark b.

    May 8, 2015 at 4:36 am

    Belief in the Bible story that Jesus is the Son of God because the Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God is self referential and provides neither proof nor is it rational.

  72. Betty Miliano

    May 23, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    He was referencing Catholic ideology..

  73. Keith Pinster

    September 20, 2015 at 8:26 pm

    Do you really think that “learning more” will get us past talking animals, magically transforming one liquid into another, humans being made out of mud, and a disembodied sky fairy creating everything from nothing using magic spells? This doesn’t take “learning”, it takes indoctrination when you are emotionally vulnerable enough to be so gullible to be talked into believing childish delusional superstitions.

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